DEBATE:
”Faith Freedom International's Ali Sina attempts to contest the solid evidence
for the Quran and Modern Science Debate”
Ali
Sina’s first rebuttal:
www.ExamineTheTruth.com
[ Intro][Part 1] [Part 2] [Part 3] [Part 4]
Mr. Nadir Ahmad,
I followed your debate with Denis Giron as you requested and here are my
observations:
You have chosen a few verses from the Quran and reinterpreted them to correlate
with the modern science and then ask how Muhammad in the 7th century could have
known all that. This is called petitio principii. Your premises are as false as
your conclusion.
Denis already responded to you adequately. His responses satisfy any thinking
man. I will add my two cents to what he said for the benefit of the readers.
1-
The first "miracle" you stated was Muhammad’s alleged knowledge of
the bees and the fact that they are female.
The fact that bees are female was already known to people at least 1000 years
before Muhammad. The oldest book that describes bees is attributed to Aristotle
350 BC.
Aristotle observed that the brood of drones appear even when there is no ruler
bee in the hive. This is an accurate observation. As we know today,
unfertilized female workers can lay eggs in the absence of a queen, but the
eggs develop into drones. Aristotle gave a fairly accurate description of the
bees with only few mistakes like confusing the gender of the Queen and calling
it the King.
What Muhammad said about bees? Let us see:
016.068
And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in
(men's) habitations;
That is all the information there is in the Quran about the bees. There is
nothing ground breaking in what we see in this verse. This is something that
not only people, but also the bears and the birds know. So Muhammad states
something obvious known to everyone including animals. What is the miracle in
this verse? The "miracle" as Mr. Ahmad and other Muslims claim is
that Muhammad refers to bees in female gender.
The word bee in Arabic is nahla. This word was not invented by Muhammad. This
is an Arabic word used by everyone who speaks Arabic. The word is feminine. In Arabic
some words are feminine some are masculine. For example Rahmat (mercy) is a
feminine word. The fact that Muhammad uses an Arabic word that happens to be
feminine is no indication that he was the first who discovered bees are female.
In fact not all bees are female. As I said the gender of the worker bees was
already known to everyone at least for 1000 years before Muhammad. All Arabs
used the same word even before Muhammad. Why Muhammad should becalled a miracle
maker and they who taught Muhammad the word should be called
"ignorant", as Muhammad desparagingly refered to all those who lived
before him?
2-
The second "miracle" stated by Mr. Ahmad is the verse 89.7
It reads:
Of the (city of) Iram, with lofty pillars,
What is so miraculous about this? Mr. Ahmed says it is the name Iram. Why?…
Because, as he says Iram was a city of
Mr. Ahmed is living is self-delusion. How come a city was destroyed and no one
knew about it? Isn’t this an absurdity? The destruction of a city is a big event.
It is obvious that people will talk about it and tell its tales to their
descendants.
3-
The third "miracle" presented by Mr. Ahmed is the verse
25.53
It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and
sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a
partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Muslims say this is a miracle because Muhammad, if not divinely inspired, could
not have known that two bodies of water do not mix.
Again, this premise is wrong. First of all anyone going to the sea watching
sweet waters carrying sediments flowing into the salty waters of the ocean can
see they do not mix immediately. In fact this is quite a scene and people who
observed it must have narrated to others in the land with amazement. This
phenomenon was hence readily observable to everyone as it is today. Sailors
must have noticed more buoyancy of their boats in the salty waters of the sea
than when they were navigating in rivers and lakes of sweet water. Waters that
have different salinity, density and temperature do not mix readily, however they
do eventually. But Muhammad states that there is a barrier between them and a
partition that is forbidden to be passed. This is of course not true. Muhammad
must have heard about this phenomenon but his knowledge was not complete and he
assumed that the waters never mix. That is why he is talking of barriers
between the seas. There is no such barrier at all and all waters do mix.
This verse points to Muhammad’s ignorance and it is no miracle at all.
4-
The next "miracle" that has dumbfounded our friend is the verse 24:40
:
Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep
ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds:
depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can
hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!
Mr. Ahmed wonders how in the world Muhammad could have known that the dept of
the sea is dark. I wished our opponent had a little bit more commonsense. Isn’t
this obvious to anyone who has taken a dive into the water to know that the
deeper you go the darker it becomes? Mr. Ahmed is under the impression that all
the humanity is bozo and cannot understand these simple facts that can be
readily experienced by everyone. You surprise me Mr. Ahmed. Didn’t you really
know that under the water there is less light? Did you have to read the Quran
to learn this simple fact that is known to sun and dry even those who have no
knowledge of the modern science?
I am always amazed to see the desperation of the Muslims to find miracles in
the most banal statements of the Quran.
Mr. Ahmed, please understand that this verse is not trying to explain to the
readers how the deep oceans look but it is exemplifying the state of the
unbeliever with something that is already known to everyone. This shows that
people who read this verse already knew that the dept of ocean is dark and with
this example Muhammad tried to make them visualize the state of the unbeliever.
If they did not know that the dept of the deeper waters are dark then the verse
would not express what it intends to express. If I tell you my shirt is as
green as my hat, when you have never seen my hat, you would not understand how
green is my shirt and I would not be speaking clear to you. Remember, clarity
is one of the claims of the Quran. But if I say my shirt is green like pine
tree, you’ll soon know what kind of green I am talking about.
Furthermore Muhammad is not talking about "deep oceans". In deep
oceans you do not need to "stretch your hand" as Muhammad says, in
order not to see it. You cannot see your hand without stretching it.
5-
The fifth miracle as stated by Mr. Ahmed is the verse 30:2 and 30:3
30.2
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
30.3
YUSUFALI: In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs,
will soon be victorious-
PICKTHAL: In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious
SHAKIR: In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome,
Mr. Ahmed claims that the word near (Adna) can also be translated as lower and
hence the above could be read: The Roman Empire was defeated in the lowest
land… Then Mr. Ahmad claims that since the
This is of course wishful thinking of a deluded believer and the absurdity of
that is self-evident. The Romans were not defeated in the Red Sea but in
6-
The sixth miracle according to Mr. Ahmed is the verse:
57.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the
Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice;
and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many
benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him
and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able
to enforce His Will).
Mr. Ahmed says that according to the Modern science, iron is the only element that
does not belong to the Earth but is sent from heaven to Earth and hence the
above verse is a miracle.
The truth is that four billion years ago, when our planet was still a scorching
ball of fire, a giant asteroid mostly made of metal struck the Earth scattering
a lot of it to the sky. The asteroid however penetrated the core of the Earth.
That is why the deeper we go the more metal we find. However iron was not the
only metal found that came with that asteroid. It contained many other metals
including gold.
The verse actually should not be taken literally. In this verse Muhammad is
saying that we sent you everything that you need including iron with which has
mighty power i.e. is strong and can benefit you as well. He did not mean that
the iron, among all the elements, is the only element that has descended from
the heaven. In Muhammad's language eveything is "sent' to man by God and
that is the meaning of this word andalna here. He did not mean that God sent
the iron from they sky but since the giver of the iron is God so the verb
nadala is used. Mr. Ahmed in the defense of his theory states that the energy
required to create one atom of iron equals several times the energy stored in
the sun. This is obviously absurd. This gentleman makes up in bravado what he
lacks in knowledge.
7-
The last "miracle" of the Quran mentioned by Mr. Ahmed is when
Muhammad says: "Each one is traveling in an orbit with its own
motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). Then he wonders: "How did the author
of the Qur'an know of this?"
Anyone looking at the sky can see that the Sun and the Moon follow a fixed
orbit. This was known to our ancestors since the dawn of time. However we see
that the Sun and the Moon revolve around the Earth and this is the orbit that
the Quran is talking about. What Quran says about the orbits of the Sun and the
Moon is the observable and perceived orbits of these celestial objects caused
by the rotation of the Earth. The Quran is talking about neither the actual
orbit of the sun around the central star of the Milky Way that takes 226
million years nor the orbit of the moon around the Earth that takes 29 days.
Muhammad is talking about the "perceived" orbit of these objects that
takes 24 hours. Any ignorant man, even the animals, could observe what Muhammad
observed. Any ignorant man could have said what Muhammad said. Muhammad was not
aware of the actual orbit of the Moon that became known to humanity through the
findings of Copernicus and Galileo let alone the orbit of the Sun that was
discovered in the 20th century.
This is clear from the verse 2:189.
"They ask you about the new moon. Say: They indicate the periods for
(various activities of) mankind, and for the pilgrimage."
Muhammad is asked about the moon and why it changes shape. This was a perfect
opportunity for him to say it is because of the rotation of the moon around the
Earth and because the light of the moon is a reflection of the light of the
sun. But he did not know the right answer. He instead said that the Moon is a
giant clock/calendar in the sky created for the believers to know what time of
the month it is and when they should perform their pilgrimage.
Muhammad thought that the Sun and the Moon have similar orbits chasing each
other in the sky while it is not allowed for the Sun to catch the Moon.
036:040
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the
day. They float each in an orbit.
We are dealing with a man with a very primitive
mind. In the verse 10:5 Muhammad says that the Moon has its own light and then
reiterates that it is a calendar in the sky, created for us humans to measure
the time.
10:5
PICKTHAL: He it is Who appointed the sun a splendour and the moon a light, and
measured for her stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the
reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the
revelations for people who have knowledge.
Of course both these statements are false. The Moon has no light of its own nor
it has anything to do with us humans. The moon has been there probably as long
as the Earth has been around and that is 4.5 billion years while we humans
appeared on this planet only 100,000 ago and will most likely disappear much
sooner than the moon. It is ridiculous to assume that the celestial objects
have been created for us humans. We are merely one species among the millions
inhabiting this planet. Nothing is created for us. These ideas are childish and
do not belong to this day and age of enlightenment.
There is no doubt that Muhammad used to think that Moon gives light.
25.61
Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp
and a Moon giving light;
71.16
And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious)
Lamp?
Of course the Moon is not a lamp and it does not give light. These verses are
enough to prove that the Quran is not revealed by any knowledgeable god.
Muhammad simply stated what was obvious to his eyes. His knowledge of the
astronomy was no more than any ignorant man of his time.
This is also clear when he says that the Sun "rises" and
"sets" in murky waters. 18.86
Mr. Ahmed, in his debate with Denis Giron makes an astounding statement. He
says that the critics could say that the orbits of the Sun and the Moon
mentioned in the Quran may indicate the rotation of these objects around the
Earth. But he says this is not so because Muhammad did not say such thing.
This reminds me of a joke we used to tell each other when in primary school.
"We Iranians used to have wireless technology in our ancient civilization.
Why? Because the archeologists have not been able to find any wire in the old
ruins."
Of course we were kids and this was a joke. However it seems that the brain of
some grownup Muslims is even less evolved than that of the children. So
according to our esteemed opponent, if Muhammad did not say that the orbit he
was talking about is the rotation of the Sun around the Earth, he must have
meant the rotation of the Sun around the black hole in the Milky Way. It does
not even occur to him to ask, if that was the case why he did not say that. Why
he did not clarify that the moon rotates around the Earth and the Earth rotates
around the center of the Milky Way? The Milky Way is very visible in the
deserts of
These are the "miracles of science" that Mr. Ahmad wanted me to
respond to. Actually Denis already responded to all these claims. However Denis
is very cautious and does not call the Quran to be a hodgepodge of gibberish.
He tries to be politically correct. He is even afraid to call a spade a spade
and say all these verses are rubbish. He goes only as far to say that the "knowledge"
contained in these verses were already known to humans prior to Muhammad. What
knowledge? Most of the Quran is garbage.
The soft attitude of Denis has emboldened Ahmed who claims the possibility of
Muhammad in being right in each and every one of these verses is 1/500,000.
Then he multiplies all these fractions and comes with an astronomically minute
number and states that the chance of Muhammad just guessing the correct answer
each and every time is less than one over a number with 26 zeros in front of
it.
Dear. Mr. Ahmed. Please do not be fooled by Denis’s niceness. He is just trying
to be politically correct. The truth is that your Quran is the stupidest book
ever written. There are not one or two but hundreds of errors in that book. It
is a shame that a man like you is so blinded with faith that cannot see the
obvious errors of this book. But stick around. Don’t go anyway. We will go over
this book together and will find out more inanities of it together.
If you have finished with your "miracles", this time allow me to dig
into that cesspool called Quran and pull out verses that would embarrass you or
hopefully open your eyes.
You also seem to not pay much attention to what others say. You have learned
only one subject and you think this is such a big hit that you want to play it
in every occasion. Sadly you are not intelligent enough to see when you are
defeated. Dr. Morey, obviously saw you are not a scholar and did not think you
are worth his time. You go around claiming you have defeated him? How you have
defeated him when he did not even dignify you with a response? The reason he
gave is that your way of debating is insulting your opponent. That is ad
hominem and highly unscholarly. I do not blame him for not giving you much
credence. You claim that you defeated Denis Giron. I listened to your debate
with him and to me it is clear that you are the one who is defeated.
Judging by your performance and especially by your boasting and bravado, it is
clear that you are not a scholar but a little man in search of fame. You try to
debate with some recognized names on the net and even though they do not
respond to you add them to your portfolio to make yourself look bigger that who
you really are. I knew your games. At first, like Dr. Morey, I thought you are
not really worth my time. But seeing your boastfulness and bluster, I thought
you would benefit if I put you in your place and amuse the Internet folk at
your expense. Perhaps this will teach you some humility and help you to become
a better debater.
I will continue debating with you, provided you behave like a scholar.
Fortunately I heard your voice and you sound like a grown up man. Otherwise
judging by your bluster and arrogance I would have suspected you are just a
teenager. If you want to debate with me, you are required to behave like a
scholar. I hope that is clear.
Now back to our discussion. You did not comment on my statement that even if
the Quran is proven to be a miracle (which of course as we are seeing it is
not) Muhammad cannot be hailed as a prophet. The ethics and morality of
Muhammad are crucial to determine his truthfulness. A liar cannot be a prophet.
Is that clear? Do you agree with this? Do you agree that if the Quran is proven
to be a miracle as you say and Muhammad is proven to be a criminal, there is a
good chance that the Quran was revealed to Muhammad by Satan? I need your
statement on this subject before we can continue with our study of the Quran.
Furthermore, please respond to other members. They are all better scholars than
you. So debating with them will certainly add to your profile and make you look
important.
Kind regards
P.S. We generally treat our guests and oponents with respect. However your
chest beating and swelling claiming to have won when we did not even start to
debate was a factor for me to deal with you in this way and bruise your nose so
hopefully you become more respectful in your future correspondance.
If anything you failed to answer my claim that even if the Quran is proven to
be a miracle still Muhammad cannot be called a prophet. This would only prove
that he was inspired by Satan. Your silence in this regard tells me you have no
response for that and hence you are the defeated one in this first
round.[img][/img][img][/img]
_________________
Doubt everything, find your own light!
Ali Sina of Faithfreedom caught RED HANDED
Lies against Islam
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